Studio e approfondimento della lingua inglese
 

Tests and exams

ngs 26 Lug 2017 22:09
I think some exams are a little absurd. I've just come across the
following exercise taken from the CAE:

[Pronounciation] Find the odd one out:
* f[or]k
* f[a]ll
* wr[o]ng
* c[au]ght

The odd one out, for me, is "fork". I pronounce the other three the same
way. The official answer is "wrong", which surprised me.

It turns out this is a "UK vs US issue". Why should I be penalized for
speaking American English instead of British English?

Kiuhnm
Tony the Ice Man 27 Lug 2017 02:37
On 07/26/17 1:09 PM, ngs wrote:
> I think some exams are a little absurd. I've just come across the
> following exercise taken from the CAE:
> [Pronounciation] Find the odd one out:
> * f[or]k
> * f[a]ll
> * wr[o]ng
> * c[au]ght
> The odd one out, for me, is "fork". I pronounce the other three the same
> way. The official answer is "wrong", which surprised me.
> It turns out this is a "UK vs US issue". Why should I be penalized for
> speaking American English instead of British English?

Perhaps because the "C" in CAE stands for Cambridge. And really, you are
being penalized for speaking Brooklyn English, not exactly American.

Kidding aside, I agree that the question is weak on the two principle
qualities of good assessments, validity and reliability. I pronounce
each of the words differently, but I would have chosen "wrong," which is
right, because the position of my mouth changes more for that word.
ngs 27 Lug 2017 13:02
On 27/07/2017 02:37, Tony the Ice Man wrote:
> On 07/26/17 1:09 PM, ngs wrote:
>> I think some exams are a little absurd. I've just come across the
>> following exercise taken from the CAE:
>> [Pronounciation] Find the odd one out:
>> * f[or]k
>> * f[a]ll
>> * wr[o]ng
>> * c[au]ght
>> The odd one out, for me, is "fork". I pronounce the other three the
>> same way. The official answer is "wrong", which surprised me.
>> It turns out this is a "UK vs US issue". Why should I be penalized for
>> speaking American English instead of British English?
>
> Perhaps because the "C" in CAE stands for Cambridge. And really, you are
> being penalized for speaking Brooklyn English, not exactly American.
>
> Kidding aside, I agree that the question is weak on the two principle
> qualities of good assessments, validity and reliability. I pronounce
> each of the words differently, but I would have chosen "wrong," which is
> right, because the position of my mouth changes more for that word.

Where are you from, if I may ask?

See here for the difference between American and British English:

http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/wrong_1?q=wrong

According to the dictionary there's no difference at all, but I think
the 'r' in 'fork' modifies the vowel sound a little bit in practice.

Kiuhnm
Fathermckenzie 27 Lug 2017 14:54
Il 27/07/2017 13:02, ngs ha scritto:
> http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/wrong_1?q=wrong
>
>
> According to the dictionary there's no difference at all, but I think
> the 'r' in 'fork' modifies the vowel sound a little bit in practice.

I'm not a good speaker, but I've been acquainted since I was a *******
that the nasal "ng" sound modifies the "o" too

--
Et interrogabant eum turbae dicentes: “Quid ergo faciemus?”.
Respondens autem dicebat illis: “Qui habet duas tunicas,
det non habenti; et, qui habet escas, similiter faciat”.
(Ev. sec. Lucam 3,10-11)
ngs 27 Lug 2017 16:43
On 27/07/2017 14:54, Fathermckenzie wrote:
> Il 27/07/2017 13:02, ngs ha scritto:
>> http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/wrong_1?q=wrong
>>
>>
>> According to the dictionary there's no difference at all, but I think
>> the 'r' in 'fork' modifies the vowel sound a little bit in practice.
>
> I'm not a good speaker, but I've been acquainted since I was a ******* > that
the nasal "ng" sound modifies the "o" too

Yep, you're right, it makes the "o" more nasal. These exercises are
probably more about macro differences.

Kiuhnm
Tony the Ice Man 27 Lug 2017 20:17
On 07/27/17 4:02 AM, ngs wrote:
> On 27/07/2017 02:37, Tony the Ice Man wrote:
>> On 07/26/17 1:09 PM, ngs wrote:
>>> I think some exams are a little absurd. I've just come across the
>>> following exercise taken from the CAE:
>>> [Pronounciation] Find the odd one out:
>>> * f[or]k
>>> * f[a]ll
>>> * wr[o]ng
>>> * c[au]ght
>>> The odd one out, for me, is "fork". I pronounce the other three the
>>> same way. The official answer is "wrong", which surprised me.
>>> It turns out this is a "UK vs US issue". Why should I be penalized for
>>> speaking American English instead of British English?
>>
>> Perhaps because the "C" in CAE stands for Cambridge. And really, you are
>> being penalized for speaking Brooklyn English, not exactly American.
>> Kidding aside, I agree that the question is weak on the two principle
>> qualities of good assessments, validity and reliability. I pronounce
>> each of the words differently, but I would have chosen "wrong," which is
>> right, because the position of my mouth changes more for that word.
>
> Where are you from, if I may ask?
> See here for the difference between American and British English:
> http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/wrong_1?q=wrong
> According to the dictionary there's no difference at all, but I think
> the 'r' in 'fork' modifies the vowel sound a little bit in practice.

Of course the "r" changes the sound. The "r" in "wrong" also modifies
the sound of the vowel. However, you are right that British English
de-emphasizes the "r" in "fork," and that tends to make the
pronunciation closer to the other words in the list.

As I said, I chose "wrong" because I noticed that my lips pushed out
more with the pronunciation of the vowel in that word than with the
vowels in the other words.

In regard to my accent, I speak the theoretical General American that
resembles the speech of metropolitan newscasters. I even pronounce "w"
as "double-you."

I am originally from New Jersey, near metropolitan NYC, but have spent
most of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area of California. I lost my
NJ accent through the re-socialization of my university experience. When
I return to NJ, after a few days have passed, I might pronounce "drawer"
as "draw." However, when I travel to the South, the local accent also
influences my pronunciation. Normally, no one can detect my linguistic
origins.

This is also true in Italy when I speak Italian. It's clear that I'm not
Italian, but unclear where I come from.
ngs 27 Lug 2017 20:38
On 27/07/2017 20:17, Tony the Ice Man wrote:
> On 07/27/17 4:02 AM, ngs wrote:
>> On 27/07/2017 02:37, Tony the Ice Man wrote:
>>> On 07/26/17 1:09 PM, ngs wrote:
>>>> I think some exams are a little absurd. I've just come across the
>>>> following exercise taken from the CAE:
>>>> [Pronounciation] Find the odd one out:
>>>> * f[or]k
>>>> * f[a]ll
>>>> * wr[o]ng
>>>> * c[au]ght
>>>> The odd one out, for me, is "fork". I pronounce the other three the
>>>> same way. The official answer is "wrong", which surprised me.
>>>> It turns out this is a "UK vs US issue". Why should I be penalized for
>>>> speaking American English instead of British English?
>>>
>>> Perhaps because the "C" in CAE stands for Cambridge. And really, you are
>>> being penalized for speaking Brooklyn English, not exactly American.
>>> Kidding aside, I agree that the question is weak on the two principle
>>> qualities of good assessments, validity and reliability. I pronounce
>>> each of the words differently, but I would have chosen "wrong," which is
>>> right, because the position of my mouth changes more for that word.
>>
>> Where are you from, if I may ask?
>> See here for the difference between American and British English:
>> http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/wrong_1?q=wrong
>> According to the dictionary there's no difference at all, but I think
>> the 'r' in 'fork' modifies the vowel sound a little bit in practice.
>
> Of course the "r" changes the sound. The "r" in "wrong" also modifies
> the sound of the vowel. However, you are right that British English
> de-emphasizes the "r" in "fork," and that tends to make the
> pronunciation closer to the other words in the list.
>
> As I said, I chose "wrong" because I noticed that my lips pushed out
> more with the pronunciation of the vowel in that word than with the
> vowels in the other words.
>
> In regard to my accent, I speak the theoretical General American that
> resembles the speech of metropolitan newscasters. I even pronounce "w"
> as "double-you."
>
> I am originally from New Jersey, near metropolitan NYC, but have spent
> most of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area of California. I lost my
> NJ accent through the re-socialization of my university experience. When
> I return to NJ, after a few days have passed, I might pronounce "drawer"
> as "draw." However, when I travel to the South, the local accent also
> influences my pronunciation. Normally, no one can detect my linguistic
> origins.
>
> This is also true in Italy when I speak Italian. It's clear that I'm not
> Italian, but unclear where I come from.

I don't see anything wrong with having an accent which reveals one's
origins. For instance, I have a very characteristic "s romagnola". If I
make an effort I can lose the "s" and I'm sure it'd get easier with
time, but why should I? Moreover, women find it ******* :)

Kiuhnm
Adam Atkinson 27 Lug 2017 20:52
On 26/07/17 21:09, ngs wrote:
> I think some exams are a little absurd. I've just come across the
> following exercise taken from the CAE:
>
> [Pronounciation] Find the odd one out:
> * f[or]k
> * f[a]ll
> * wr[o]ng
> * c[au]ght

"wrong"

> The odd one out, for me, is "fork". I pronounce the other three the same
> way. The official answer is "wrong", which surprised me.

Well I don't know what to tell you.

> It turns out this is a "UK vs US issue". Why should I be penalized for
> speaking American English instead of British English?

Well the Cambridge exams are of course UK English. I've seen US people
fail to know some of the obscurer "Use of English" stuff in CPE too.

I could imagine there are US English things I could get wrong in US
based EFL exams. But probably not enough to make a lot of difference.
Tony the Ice Man 27 Lug 2017 21:13
On 07/27/17 11:38 AM, ngs wrote:
> On 27/07/2017 20:17, Tony the Ice Man wrote:
>> On 07/27/17 4:02 AM, ngs wrote:
>>> On 27/07/2017 02:37, Tony the Ice Man wrote:
>>>> On 07/26/17 1:09 PM, ngs wrote:
>>>>> I think some exams are a little absurd. I've just come across the
>>>>> following exercise taken from the CAE:
>>>>> [Pronounciation] Find the odd one out:
>>>>> * f[or]k
>>>>> * f[a]ll
>>>>> * wr[o]ng
>>>>> * c[au]ght
>>>>> The odd one out, for me, is "fork". I pronounce the other three the
>>>>> same way. The official answer is "wrong", which surprised me.
>>>>> It turns out this is a "UK vs US issue". Why should I be penalized for
>>>>> speaking American English instead of British English?
>>>> Perhaps because the "C" in CAE stands for Cambridge. And really, you
>>>> are
>>>> being penalized for speaking Brooklyn English, not exactly American.
>>>> Kidding aside, I agree that the question is weak on the two principle
>>>> qualities of good assessments, validity and reliability. I pronounce
>>>> each of the words differently, but I would have chosen "wrong,"
>>>> which is
>>>> right, because the position of my mouth changes more for that word.
>>> Where are you from, if I may ask?
>>> See here for the difference between American and British English:
>>> http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/wrong_1?q=wrong

>>> According to the dictionary there's no difference at all, but I think
>>> the 'r' in 'fork' modifies the vowel sound a little bit in practice.
>> Of course the "r" changes the sound. The "r" in "wrong" also modifies
>> the sound of the vowel. However, you are right that British English
>> de-emphasizes the "r" in "fork," and that tends to make the
>> pronunciation closer to the other words in the list.
>> As I said, I chose "wrong" because I noticed that my lips pushed out
>> more with the pronunciation of the vowel in that word than with the
>> vowels in the other words.
>> In regard to my accent, I speak the theoretical General American that
>> resembles the speech of metropolitan newscasters. I even pronounce "w"
>> as "double-you."
>> I am originally from New Jersey, near metropolitan NYC, but have spent
>> most of my life in the San Francisco Bay Area of California. I lost my
>> NJ accent through the re-socialization of my university experience. When
>> I return to NJ, after a few days have passed, I might pronounce "drawer"
>> as "draw." However, when I travel to the South, the local accent also
>> influences my pronunciation. Normally, no one can detect my linguistic
>> origins.
>> This is also true in Italy when I speak Italian. It's clear that I'm not
>> Italian, but unclear where I come from.
>
> I don't see anything wrong with having an accent which reveals one's
> origins. For instance, I have a very characteristic "s romagnola". If I
> make an effort I can lose the "s" and I'm sure it'd get easier with
> time, but why should I? Moreover, women find it ******* :)
>
> Kiuhnm

I didn't say there was anything wrong with retaining an accent. Nor was
I bragging that I don't have a strong regional accent. I was just
answering your question with too much information.

In fact, I agree, and I've said to ADPUF in the past, that I think it's
advantageous for Italians to retain some of their accent as long as they
remain understandable. Beyond that, I can add no acknowledgment of your
apparent chick-magnetism.

I would just like to be able to roll my r's better and remember Italian
vowel pronunciation more often when speaking Italian. Let the
attractiveness of my other worldly pronunciation be damned.

NB:
Regarding another conversation here, I recently remembered that although
"out of this world" means meraviglioso, you can say "from another world"
to signify estraneo.
ngs 28 Lug 2017 13:29
On 27/07/2017 21:13, Tony the Ice Man wrote:
> I didn't say there was anything wrong with retaining an accent. Nor was
> I bragging that I don't have a strong regional accent. I was just
> answering your question with too much information.
>
> In fact, I agree, and I've said to ADPUF in the past, that I think it's
> advantageous for Italians to retain some of their accent as long as they
> remain understandable. Beyond that, I can add no acknowledgment of your
> apparent chick-magnetism.

I was talking about my Italian accent when speaking Italian! When I
speak English I use the more standard sibilant 's'.
The part about me attracting women thanks to my accent was a joke, of
course. It has more to do with my being handsome :)

> I would just like to be able to roll my r's better and remember Italian
> vowel pronunciation more often when speaking Italian. Let the
> attractiveness of my other worldly pronunciation be damned.

I wish I had learned English as a ******* It would've been so much easier...

> NB:
> Regarding another conversation here, I recently remembered that although
> "out of this world" means meraviglioso, you can say "from another world"
> to signify estraneo.

Got it, thanks.

Kiuhnm
ngs 28 Lug 2017 13:34
On 27/07/2017 20:52, Adam Atkinson wrote:
> Well the Cambridge exams are of course UK English. I've seen US people
> fail to know some of the obscurer "Use of English" stuff in CPE too.
>
> I could imagine there are US English things I could get wrong in US
> based EFL exams. But probably not enough to make a lot of difference.

Actually, I was wrong about the test being taken from the CAE exam. It
was just an exercise at the C1 level. I don't know where it comes from.

Kiuhnm

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